Do the texts in the library exist before they're read ?

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This topic contains 50 replies, has 2 voices, and was last updated by  Ed Gore 2 weeks, 3 days ago.

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  • #29707 Reply

    Ed Gore

    1) Without the source code, you are drinking the cool-aid and swallowing the lies which this Basile character keeps throwing on you. Sometimes, we believe in things because we want them to be real so bad, but in our heart, we know that they’re not. Why do you believe this unknown man who has zero evidence to back up his claims, which literally are cited as “theories”? Perhaps Basile is the real trickster, if not Borges.

    2) The theoretical number of pages sure exceed the number of atoms, but the physical number of pages? Zero. So in regards to simple arithmetic, zero is less than 10^82. As long as no pages are stored, the number of pages remain zero. What has not been created cannot exist; your argument that we are yet to “discover” the remaining pages is hogwash. They simply don’t exist.

    3) Your premise that being condescending to me is justified by me being condescending to you is fundamentally incorrect. Don’t try to shift the blame of your actions onto me. I, on the other hand, openly admit that I was adopting a condescending tone.

    #29709 Reply

    Delengroth
    Participant

    Addressing your points in order:

    1) It’s rather simple, I don’t need to “believe” him because I am a software engineer. I already know that it’s possible to code the Library. If you missed it, I also posted earlier a thread where Jonathan asked for help on his algorithm from StackOverflow (a programmer help website). He even shared a part of the solution. Further, other people (who had more time than I do) have already made their own clones which work exactly the same way. The only downside is that because we don’t have Jonathan’s source, they had to make their own version of the algorithm. This means that book locations are not compatible between each other.

    Jonathan’s help request:
    https://stackoverflow.com/questions/29569927/pseudo-random-distribution-which-guarantees-all-possible-permutations-of-value-s

    Library of Pybel by cakenggt, open source (clone):
    https://github.com/cakenggt/Library-Of-Pybel

    Library of Eternity by Zan (clone):
    Thread: https://libraryofbabel.info/forum/?topic=semi-compatible-library-of-babel-clone
    Website: https://www.eternitymud.com/library/

    2) We’re splitting hairs on semantics here, but I’ll offer you my viewpoint. I can mash my keyboard and write down a number such as: 519,084,266,971,438,679,013,876,098,367,489,147,094,637,218,563,281,576,493,168,705,968,743,867,849,106,723,908,674,189,576,493,677,908,413,275,469,382,768,304,176,190,348,678,913,314. Was the number ever written down by someone else before I did that? There’s a good chance it wasn’t. However, our understanding of mathematics tells us that the number can and very well does exist. I simply believe that the same concept applies to the Library. If you draw the line at “it has to be stored somewhere”, then we’ll just have to agree to disagree with each other.

    3) I was not justifying anything, rather, I was refusing to claim responsibility at driving you away when you had already made up your mind and then later shifted the blame on me. I’ve been lingering around this website for a while now, and it’s simply just a hobby. I try and come up with fun new uses for the Library, offer explanations due to my technical background to the less informed, as well as engage in the typical philosophical discussions that the nature of the Library stirs up. If I came off as hostile, I do apologize, but this hopefully explains why I was a bit sensitive to your tone and words.

    #29932 Reply

    Tom

    What’s hilarious is that all of this arguing is contained with the library. Including copies of the responses from naysayers but with their names changed to the names of star trek characters instead. It also contains this message I’m typing out right now, with the preceding text, nobody loves a know it all.

    Even one where it says my mother is a horse and that there’s nothing I can do about it. The truth is that the true absurdity of all that is intelligible and unintelligible in 3200 characters and 410 pages is represented in this algorithm. Meaning is only extracted by the observer, the algorithm cares not for the results, or for your disbelief of its results.

    #29934 Reply

    Ed Gore

    Arguing? Bollocks! His ludicrous claims are akin to that of a wild goose. He wants to believe and so he does, with his pretentious claims of profession to cover him up. How can there be an argument if one can’t justify their side? I’ll have you know that this forum post is not in the library, but rather will “appear” in the library once it does its corrupt gobbledoo when I search for it,

    #29942 Reply

    Delengroth
    Participant

    Wow, and here I thought you were open to a civil discussion, so I tried to be nice and explain my point of view. I even provided links that would allow you to code your own Library of Babel from scratch if you had the skills to do so.

    But no, it’s very clear that you don’t even read my posts, and even after I tried to be nice, you resort to comparing me to a wild goose, making me out to be a sucker, while at the same time discrediting the fact that I am a programmer (which, btw, I’ve written several pieces of code on these forums including demonstrating multi-keyword search, how pages are generated, even extended the functionality of the website to allow for arrow-key navigation). Links are:

    Multi keyword search:
    https://libraryofbabel.info/forum/?topic=double-search-possibility/#post-26149

    How pages are generated:
    https://libraryofbabel.info/forum/?topic=concern-with-the-authenticity-of-this-website/#post-21654

    Arrow key navigation:
    https://libraryofbabel.info/forum/?topic=suggestion-flipping-through-pages-and-books-with-arrow-keys/#post-18600

    I even debunked how someone claimed they made a real find, and lied to a lot of people about it:
    https://libraryofbabel.info/forum/?topic=i-found-an-image&paged=5#post-17663

    It’s obvious now that you’re just a troll. Why else hang out on a website you hate so much?

    #29945 Reply

    Ed Gore

    Let thou be whoever thou wants to be o delengroth but let me ask you one question:
    why do you believe in the powers of the Library? You still haven’t made that clear, and all you’ve done is just spam a bunch of links in a forum post. You say that I made you look like a sucker, but you haven’t proved otherwise.

    #29946 Reply

    Delengroth
    Participant

    As I’ve already mentioned, I’m a software engineer. If I took the time to research reversible linear congruential generators, and coming up with a good implementation, I could very well make my own Library. In fact, I’ve thought about making a “Fortunes of Babel” that would generate every possible phrase of 50 characters or so (about the size of a fortune cookie’s fortune). The only reason I even thought to do that would be to illustrate the inner mechanisms of this Library with a much smaller data set that is easier to understand, as well as providing the code for it. Since the fortunes would be so small, you could even step through the code yourself by hand using simple math, which I would also explain.

    All I really lack is the time to do so. Between that, and the fact that it wouldn’t have any practical use, that project has been put on the shelf in favor of other ones.

    #29948 Reply

    Ed Gore

    If you want to call me out for hypocrisy of wasting my time writing posts, may I remind you who is writing 5 paragraph essays on here as responses to me? Look in the mirror! And it is quite audacious to say that you are God! For only God can make a Library, amen, not you or Basile! Where is your Fortunes source code? And how dare you say I have no computer skills! Your belief is trapping you and you are making assumptions! Sad!

    #29949 Reply

    Delengroth
    Participant

    I pointed out that you waste your time posting on a website you constantly call a scam. You clearly don’t like this place. I, on the other hand, love this website. You asked a question and I answered. So I’m not wasting my time. That’s not hypocrisy, you’re just making a fool of yourself. Again proving you don’t read my posts.

    Oh I’d love for you to point out where I made any sort of claim about being God.

    Yet again you didn’t read my post. I only only outlined my idea and reason to make one, but have neither the time nor necessity to do so.

    Since you’re clearly a troll at this point who doesn’t read anything and then spins it into something stupid, I’ll just let you keep going. By now, anyone who is reading knows you’re not being serious. And honestly, it’s pretty entertaining watching you keep tripping over your own logic.

    #29950 Reply

    Ed Gore

    Pfft you are just dehumanizing me with your talk of me “trolling.” Are you too close minded to imagine anyone who has an opinion beside your own? You’re the one who said that we’re having a “civil discussion,” which was then contradicted by yourself and then rebranded as me “trolling” and you being “entertained.” And remember when I said Basile is a trickster? Basile has said in a forum post of September 2015 that he intended to finish a downloadable version of the Library in EARLY 2016! We are two and a half years after that and still nothing, what do you have to say about that? Sad! He knows no such program can exist!

    #29951 Reply

    Ed Gore

    Also side note, Basile DOES PAY WEBHOSTING FEES! Even though you said earlier that the website runs on a free host. Basile said “webshosting is becoming more expensive” !

    #29967 Reply

    Ed Gore

    Are you just ignoring me and not responding since I called out Basile? Sad!

    #29969 Reply

    Delengroth
    Participant

    No, I’m not ignoring you. First, I had sleep to take care of, and then a job in the day. Secondly, you’ve proven again and again that no matter how civil and calm I try to be with you, you can’t return the favor. I’m losing interest in replying, and struggling to see a reason to do so. Nonetheless, I’ll try and answer the couple of questions you did ask.

    On why Basile has not released the source code after saying he would:
    From what I know, it was his intention to do so. However, there were some features that he planned to add beforehand that were highly requested (such as full book searching). That might not be the case anymore. He has also mentioned that he has been busy with writing projects such as his book. Between that, daily life, and the fact that this might just not be at the top of his priority list, it just simply fell by the wayside. It happens. I can only speculate with the information that’s been given, so you’d have to ask him yourself for a full explanation.

    On web hosting:
    I said “If I’m not mistaken, this website is on a free host.”, that doesn’t mean I claimed it with 100% certainty. Upon some searching around, it appears that there are some fees associated with this website, but it’s certainly possible to do it for free (minus domain name renewal).

    #29970 Reply

    Ed Gore

    I said Basile said he would release a “downloadable version of the Library in early 2016” and you said “source code”… who is not reading posts?? The hypocrisy! Also the fact that he has said multiple times that he has a donate button for money contributions and that has gone unnoticed by you until this point seems very fishy. If it’s possible to do it for free, then why is he asking for money?? The only activity that he’s had on this forum is to advertise his new book! Corruption if I’ve ever seen it!

    #29973 Reply

    Delengroth
    Participant

    Having the source code is the same as having a downloadable version. He has said literally both, in the same post, even:
    https://libraryofbabel.info/forum/?topic=open-source/#post-1525

    Funny enough, in my searching, I found yet another post where someone else made their own open source implementation:
    https://libraryofbabel.info/forum/?topic=server-side-source-code&paged=2#post-14554

    I had actually forgotten that there was a donate button, but that’s not relevant to your question. While it is possible to host this website for free, his current implementation depends on server-side scripts. That can spell trouble when you have a sudden influx of visitors. I’m sure you’ve heard “there’s no such thing as a free lunch”, well the same applies to web hosting. Free hosts use a variety of methods to make up for the cost of giving away their resources:
    – Some place limitations such as bandwidth or disk space. If you exceed those, then they may start asking for payment, which is possible when your website goes viral due to it being featured in a popular Youtube video.
    – Another option is to place advertisements on the website, but that can make this place look ugly.
    – Yet another option is to cover the costs with a premium tier that others may select, but then it places the burden on them to cover those that won’t.

    None of those options are really that great, and they’re the majority of what we can do right now. Free web hosting is still in the wild west, and quite difficult to pull off. There is one solution, however. A version of the Library could be implemented in Javascript. Whether Jonathan does it himself, or opens up the source for someone else to do so, it will accomplish 3 things:

    1) The website can now be served statically, rather than dynamically. There are plenty of websites that will do this at no extra cost, such as GitHub Pages.
    2) Because it is run statically, you can run it locally (downloadable). That means loading pages is instantaneous since they only have to run on your computer.
    3) Because Javascript is run locally, you would have access to all of the source code, and thus ends the legitimacy debate.

    The only casualty here would be the forums, but that can be easily replaced with something such as Reddit.

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